Revamping UOF Fighting/PvP Mechanics

[Winstonian]

Suggestions on how to fix various aspects of combat - and PvP - are made regularly on these forums. I've heard from the staff that they're striving to improve these areas.

Question: is the staff willing to consider significant changes to combat and PvP? Or will pot-throwing stun mages and poison 1h alchy dexers remain the two clear-cut viable fighting builds on UOF?

 

[Shane]

Significant changes?

The funny thing about PvP is everyone has their own idea about it.

We've personally had at least 15+ PvPers in UOFOREVER's time have direct say about damages and have worked with each of them one on one, and as you can see, apparently it's still not right to some people.

You really need to elaborate more on what you feel is so wrong about the current pvp that it needs significant changes.

 

[Lithium149]

I can't really say my PvP opinion holds much weight with such little experience under my belt playing OSI/other shards.

But dueling in the pits against some of the best who play here there is a lot of skill involved when managing/throwing your purple pots.

It adds a whole other element to dueling and the amped up damage on purple pots allow for some fast paced duels, if your new here Wistonian I suggest getting used to throwing purples it isn't as easy as it looks and soon enough you might even find yourself enjoying the challenge it creates.

 

[Winstonian]

Significant changes?

The funny thing about PvP is everyone has their own idea about it.

We've personally had at least 15+ PvP in UOFOREVER's time have direct say about damages and worked with each of them one on one, and as you can see, apparently it's still not right to some people.

You really need to elaborate more on what you feel is so wrong about the current pvp that it needs significant changes.

Fair enough. I guess, before expecting such tweaks to be heard, I was curious if overhauling and improving the system was something that would even be considered.

But, you're right: some think it's fine the way it is. I think it's far from where it could be, and getting it there would make an already great shard unbeatable. My areas of concern:

1. Build diversity. There are, right now, two supreme builds in UO PVP, and I think that dilutes the quality of the game. If you aren't throwing purple pots as a stun mage or applying poison as a 1h alchy dexer, you don't stand a legitimate chance against a decent player using one of those two builds. With all of the skills at our disposal, I think that's a tremendous imbalance, and one that should be addressed.

2. Same-spell group spam. It's not that gank squads are bad - they aren't - it's that this game caters to them. There should absolutely be strength in numbers, but a group should be forced to do more than just cast one spell and hit a 'target closest enemy' macro. Again, there are ways to tweak this to maintain the 'strength in numbers' mentality while forcing players to actually put thought into playing.

3. Shortcuts. This one probably can't/won't be addressed, which is fine, but this "20 year old wizard game" is far too easy to exploit. Example: if a mechanic allows a player the opportunity to "auto cure", that mechanic should be removed, regardless how much that might inconvenience those that aren't abusing the exploit. Skill gain is way too easy to make the removing of certain scripts a devastating blow.

I have a ton of ideas on how to fix each concern. I'm not suggesting that my ideas would magically fix all of the problems, but that a pursuit of fixing any of these issues could lead to the testing and possible implementation of ideas/changes that work.

(The PvM here is strooong, and diversity was implemented with talismans. Instead of tamers being the clear-cut best option, mages and dexers can now have relative success, offering different options for players. Those options are crucial, in my opinion.)

 

[Lithium149]

Fair enough. I guess, before expecting such tweaks to be heard, I was curious if overhauling and improving the system was something that would even be considered.

But, you're right: some think it's fine the way it is. I think it's far from where it could be, and getting it there would make an already great shard unbeatable. My areas of concern:

1. Build diversity. There are, right now, two supreme builds in UO PVP, and I think that dilutes the quality of the game. If you aren't throwing purple pots as a stun mage or applying poison as a 1h alchy dexer, you don't stand a legitimate chance against a decent player using one of those two builds. With all of the skills at our disposal, I think that's a tremendous imbalance, and one that should be addressed.

2. Same-spell group spam. It's not that gank squads are bad - they aren't - it's that this game caters to them. There should absolutely be strength in numbers, but a group should be forced to do more than just cast one spell and hit a 'target closest enemy' macro. Again, there are ways to tweak this to maintain the 'strength in numbers' mentality while forcing players to actually put thought into playing.

3. Shortcuts. This one probably can't/won't be addressed, which is fine, but this "20 year old wizard game" is far too easy to exploit. Example: if a mechanic allows a player the opportunity to "auto cure", that mechanic should be removed, regardless how much that might inconvenience those that aren't abusing the exploit. Skill gain is way too easy to make the removing of certain scripts a devastating blow.

I have a ton of ideas on how to fix each concern. I'm not suggesting that my ideas would magically fix all of the problems, but that a pursuit of fixing any of these issues could lead to the testing and possible implementation of ideas/changes that work.

(The PvM here is strooong, and diversity was implemented with talismans. Instead of tamers being the clear-cut best option, mages and dexers can now have relative success, offering different options for players. Those options are crucial, in my opinion.)

Not going to take too much more time here, but just a few quarrels with your first point.

1. Build Diversity.

There are many different template options here on UOF nothing is set in stone and their are quite a few different builds for you to play.

Heal/Stun - Field/1v1
Scribe/Stun - Field
Alchy/Stun - 1v1 and Field to pot down runners & marathon men.

Why Stun? Because it literally is the only way to drop people in the field without them off screening your every attack/dump.

Stun Tamer

Gay.. But lethal.

Alchy Dexxer, few different ways to build this one with either Poisoning or Magery.

Lame in my opinion, some people enjoy the Dexxers and 1v1 this template is tough to handle the damage output.

Now there is also Tank Mage, Archer Mage, Thief Mage and to be honest I'm quite new I am sure there are many other viable templates.

Test some stuff out, you may be surprised with the outcome also don't forget here with power scrolls you can also reach a 720 skill cap which opens up a variety of templates.

 

[Winstonian]

Actually, I only use uoforever builds. I have come up with a few that are pretty good (concussion mage, nightmare archer), but that shouldn't be the way it is. There shouldn't be two builds that are vastly superior to the others.

Take two-handed weapons. They need a completely overhaul. Quite simply, missing four swings in a row with a slow two-hander is unacceptable, and should absolutely be tweaked. Missing with a fast, one-handed weapon and a slow, two-handed weapon are completely different scenarios, and an adjustment should be made to compensate. (Adjust a skill that corrects this.)

And what about a mage that doesn't have to rely on stun? If running is the issue, why not focus on correcting that issue instead of making one skill an absolute staple? Nox should absolutely get a boost (make DP ticks as fast as LP ticks), and other outside-the-box improvements should be tested.

It's not about the number of non-viable builds. Yes, I can make a disarm/healing mage with mining. It's the viability of those other builds. Right now, two distinct builds are vastly better than the others. A balance should be found.

 

[Lithium149]

Man I can agree sometimes whiffing sometimes like 3x in a row can be frustrating I have had people hit me over 40 damage.

I am at that point literally praying they will miss their next swing so I can pop a gheal.

Stun is far too essential to give up group fights and it has already been reduced from 4s to 3s, without bolas there isn't any real way to make people stay and fight.

Non viable builds? I really don't see anywhere I mentioned a crafting skill included in those templates, I am actually in the works of making a uoforever-esque template once I achieve the 720 skills and I'll let you how my template goes.

 

[Winstonian]

Man I can agree sometimes whiffing sometimes like 3x in a row can be frustrating I have had people hit me over 40 damage.

I am at that point literally praying they will miss their next swing so I can pop a gheal.

Stun is far too essential to give up group fights and it has already been reduced from 4s to 3s, without bolas there isn't any real way to make people stay and fight.

Non viable builds? I really don't see anywhere I mentioned a crafting skill included in those templates, I am actually in the works of making a uoforever-esque template once I achieve the 720 skills and I'll let you how my template goes.

It's those misses, which are far too common, that make a slow weapon borderline unusable in PvP. The hit rate for a slow weapon should be increased, if not slightly, to make them viable.

As for running: bolas clearly aren't the answer, but there has to be something that can fix running without forcing all mages to pick the same six skills. Something. Greatly increased mount stam while in combat? That would help.

The mention of mining was clearly a joke. The point was: you listed a number of builds that simply don't compete with the top two.

Alchemy should be a requirement for expl pots to do any damage. Slow weapons should get an accuracy boost with another skill at GM. Nox should become viable.

Things along these lines should at least be explored and tested.

 

[Lithium149]

No I listed many viable builds, their are many different situations you can encounter and each template has their one up or advantage.

I think the honest solution here is for you to buckle down and learn to throw a purple pot.

Good luck on your suggestion bud.

 

[Winstonian]

No I listed many viable builds, their are many different situations you can encounter and each template has their one up or advantage.

I think the honest solution here is for you to buckle down and learn to throw a purple pot.

Good luck on your suggestion bud.

Yeah, that's my point. If the mindset is "you must run a stun-mage or an alchy dexer and throw purple pots to be competitive", then that's fine. If the admins feel that that's what UOF PvP is and will be, so be it. I'd just like to know that before investing more time/effort.

(I played during a time when chugging and throwing 1v1 was shameful. It was embarrassing. If you did it, the duel would end and you'd be laughed at. The concept of "try to fit this action between other actions" isn't difficult or groundbreaking: most games require a player do far more in PvP/PvE than UO. This notion that PvPers here are 'leet' because they can manage to fit a purple potion between the 2-3 spells they cast is laughable.)

Edit: and if Shane and Co. had a moment of weakness and decided to implement both AoS and Trammel, I bet most of the players would have an issue. Telling those players "suck it up and adapt nub, AoS nonsense is what makes players leet", they'd look like fools. Like some do now.

 

[drasked]

The concept of "try to fit this action between other actions" isn't difficult or groundbreaking: most games require a player do far more in PvP/PvE than UO. This notion that PvPers here are 'leet' because they can manage to fit a purple potion between the 2-3 spells they cast is laughable.)

I'd like to see you try.

 

[The Real Jenova]

Okay first off since ive been back ive seen alot of zerg guilds no small group fights which are the best but i think it should be a way too force smaller pvp guilds 3-6 members tops. I think we should make order/chaos and do the classic warring or do ipy style and do town militia with 6 towns occlo,yew, etc etc. Something to balance out the big groups abit

 

[Winstonian]

I'd like to see you try.

... seriously? Is there really a notion that expl pot throwing is anything groundbreaking or leet? There are builds in a number of other games I've played that take far more timing and strategy than expl pot throwing.

And, honestly, if PvP here was altered to make a number of builds equally viable, I'd probably end up making some sort of expl pot thrower. Sadly, it's the bullshit front-runner gimp build of the server, so I have no interest in following suit. (And the 'it's needed to stop people from running' excuse is trash, considering those that need purple pots to get kills throw them at the beginning of fights, long before the other player thinks about running.)

 

[Winstonian]

Putting char diversity aside, there are other issues. If the loudest players don't think that they should be fixed, and the staff agrees: so be it. I'd just like for that to be made clear.

 

[drasked]

... seriously? Is there really a notion that expl pot throwing is anything groundbreaking or leet? There are builds in a number of other games I've played that take far more timing and strategy than expl pot throwing.

And, honestly, if PvP here was altered to make a number of builds equally viable, I'd probably end up making some sort of expl pot thrower. Sadly, it's the bullshit front-runner gimp build of the server, so I have no interest in following suit. (And the 'it's needed to stop people from running' excuse is trash, considering those that need purple pots to get kills throw them at the beginning of fights, long before the other player thinks about running.)

You're making no sense.

Come to the pits and 1v1 me, let's see how well you grasp "fit a purple potion between the 2-3 spells"

 

[Lithium149]

You're making no sense.

Come to the pits and 1v1 me, let's see how well you grasp "fit a purple potion between the 2-3 spells"

Highly doubt you'll make much head way here bud, but yeah I doubt he is able to do what he seems to think is so easy.

Once you actually get good at Alchemy you'll notice it's much more faster paced then 5x and just poison interrupt.

Anyways, I like it just the way things are I highly suggest the OP learns to adapt or create his own viable template.

 

[Winstonian]

So, the fact that 'leet fighters' become marathon runners during nearly every duel is good the way it is? Big group e-bolt spam shouldn't be changed? Cheating is acceptable?

You missed the 'more should be adjusted than just build diversity' point.

 

[MZ3K]

Suggestions on how to fix various aspects of combat - and PvP - are made regularly on these forums. I've heard from the staff that they're striving to improve these areas.

Question: is the staff willing to consider significant changes to combat and PvP? Or will pot-throwing stun mages and poison 1h alchy dexers remain the two clear-cut viable fighting builds on UOF?

I think he's getting at the lack of variety. I think that's a serious issue - not for UO:F, but for UO:R, which the server is modeled after.

I don't think homogenity was one of the hallmarks of UO:R. Early UO was a pioneer game, and it had a lot of variety for its time. Things have changed a lot since then. Moreover, we know a lot more about the effects of certain types of changes. The number of viable builds could definitely be expanded (new skills, new inter-skill interactions like what you did with defensive wrestle, or a greater number of special moves)

 

[MZ3K]

1. Build Diversity

There are many different template options here on UOF nothing is set in stone and their are quite a few different builds for you to play.

Heal/Stun - Field/1v1
Scribe/Stun - Field
Alchy/Stun - 1v1 and Field to pot down runners & marathon men.

....

A good number of non-identical viable-templates isn't, by itself, enough to make the server diverse. The amount of difference among templates matters too. Your post makes my point: all the builds you list vary by exactly one skill.

 

[Lithium149]

A good number of non-identical viable-templates isn't, by itself, enough to make the server diverse. The amount of difference among templates matters too. Your post makes my point: all the builds you list vary by exactly one skill.

Maybe when you quote half of my post then yes, but if you look back you'll notice I also listed tank mages, and two different types of Alchy Dexxers and all those templates do not use stun.

I probably listed a bunch of Magery type templates because that is what I am comfortable playing, and when it comes to field PvP and not just 1v1 stun is a very important skill I do not see why anyone in their right mind would give up a 3s stun.

I don't know how else to help you folks besides saying go hit the duel pits and practice, there are far more viable templates than two and I listed many.

Go practice and get good, some new OP template isn't going to make you any better you will still need to learn the mechanics of PVP if you ever intend on getting half decent.