Arms Lore Change

[Lothar]

This is already a thing, it's called a defense dexer.

Care to elaborate? Defense Dexxers honestly have a stronger dilemma because their template already has 1 extra skill in it over a Beserker.

Beserker Core Skills:
Swords/Fencing
Tactics
Anatomy
Healing
Resist

Added Skills:
Lumberjacking (dmg bonus for Axers)
Hiding / Stealth (Relic dmg bonus)
Magery/Med (Survivability / flexibility)

Defense Core Skills:
1. Swords/Fencing
2. Tactics
3. Anatomy
4. Healing
5. Resist
6. Parry

Added Skills:
Hiding (survivability)
Magery (durability / flexibility)
Lumberjacking (dmg bonus for Axers)


Some could argue that Parry is an added skill for Defense Meta Dexxers, but I disagree since you are required to have a shield in order to have the sufficient additional AR to not have the experience penalty.

All Arms Lore to me is an additional Added Skill to the Core skills for either. Is it a better choice than say Lumberjacking (probably since damage is lesser imo if you can't hit to begin with. But technically, Beserkers could roll Arms Lore with LJ and get both bonuses. Defense Meta's can't. Most of their bonuses are survivability, which is honestly not damage mitigation as is Parry or the Tali bonus itself or say a Val Swampy.

If anyone benefits the most from this, its the Beserker, which is already the most popular Meta out there (and there's a reason for that). Again, I'm not bitching on my choices or that this change sucks. But it is just further modifying everyone's options of what a good template could be.

I agree with others above that there is no 1 perfect Template for both PvP or PvM. They are polar opposites. If you want to try and be good at both, you must sacrifice from either side. Someone who fully invests in a PvM template versus a more well rounded oned will obviously have stronger benefits. (read: Jack of all Trades, Master of None).

 

[Cino]

Care to elaborate? Defense Dexxers honestly have a stronger dilemma because their template already has 1 extra skill in it over a Beserker.

Beserker Core Skills:
Swords/Fencing
Tactics
Anatomy
Healing
Resist

Added Skills:
Lumberjacking (dmg bonus for Axers)
Hiding / Stealth (Relic dmg bonus)
Magery/Med (Survivability / flexibility)

Defense Core Skills:
1. Swords/Fencing
2. Tactics
3. Anatomy
4. Healing
5. Resist
6. Parry

Added Skills:
Hiding (survivability)
Magery (durability / flexibility)
Lumberjacking (dmg bonus for Axers)


Some could argue that Parry is an added skill for Defense Meta Dexxers, but I disagree since you are required to have a shield in order to have the sufficient additional AR to not have the experience penalty.

All Arms Lore to me is an additional Added Skill to the Core skills for either. Is it a better choice than say Lumberjacking (probably since damage is lesser imo if you can't hit to begin with. But technically, Beserkers could roll Arms Lore with LJ and get both bonuses. Defense Meta's can't. Most of their bonuses are survivability, which is honestly not damage mitigation as is Parry or the Tali bonus itself or say a Val Swampy.

If anyone benefits the most from this, its the Beserker, which is already the most popular Meta out there (and there's a reason for that). Again, I'm not bitching on my choices or that this change sucks. But it is just further modifying everyone's options of what a good template could be.

I agree with others above that there is no 1 perfect Template for both PvP or PvM. They are polar opposites. If you want to try and be good at both, you must sacrifice from either side. Someone who fully invests in a PvM template versus a more well rounded oned will obviously have stronger benefits. (read: Jack of all Trades, Master of None).

I'll be able to take you step by step on why the defense dexer fits both extremely strong pvm/pvp capability and is unrivaled in dungeon and tamer pvp. Note that I'm talking late game.

A fully maxed defense relic with a swamp dragon means you take 70%? less damage to monsters, regardless of the armor you have or shield for that matter. Parrying on a maxed defense talisman is honestly not needed at all, as you mitigate such a large amount of pvm damage already that a chance to negate a melee attack is not worth 100 points. The experience boost is meaningless, so you're better off having that slot open for potions.

Being so damn tanky means you can stay in the thick of a large mob spawn and deal consistent damage, rarely needing to back off and heal.

For the arms lore aspect, I want you to take a look at sketeg, who was able to top the charts in the elemental invasion WITHOUT arms lore at all AND an untrained zerker tali. Now, imagine having that gigantic damage mitigation, and instead of parry and arms lore take up poisoning and alchemy. You can now particiate more than adequately in a champ spawn, and have a fully overpowered pvp template that can 1v1 anyone. Did I also mention with relics you have no problem vs tamers as well? This template also makes an amazing pker, as anyone without a defense relic who can't mitigate damage like you can will run through dungeons, get either disrupted/firebreathed/casted on by mobs while you take no damage.

Replacing poisoning for hiding on the pk template makes you able to redirect aggro much more efficiently (works best with instant aggro mobs like dragons/paragons), and there you have it - a perfectly viable way to mix both pvm and pvp with the tools we have provided to us.

 

[Young Star]

My issue is that they shouldn't be polar opposites. That is a mistake in my opinion for this rype of game. Skills for inflicting or defending against damage should have a purpose regardless if you are fighting a monster or a player.

Yes there are skills that are often seen as support skills that are less effective depending on whether fighting a monster or player but spirit speak and armslore have ZERO purpose for pvp.

Yeah parry sucks in pvp but it still contributes. Alchemy doesnt help much in PVM but can contribute if you choise to throw pots at a boss or something.

 

[girana]

C
Beserker Core Skills:
Swords/Fencing
Tactics
Anatomy
Healing
Resist

you missing Macing

and i dont consider Resist as Core Skill

 

[Lothar]

When you are melee. I do.

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[girana]

When you are melee. I do.

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my meta dexer got macing and no resist and doing pretty well

 

[Lothar]

Let me start by saying that your below post has a lot of miss-information...

I'll be able to take you step by step on why the defense dexer fits both extremely strong pvm/pvp capability and is unrivaled in dungeon and tamer pvp. Note that I'm talking late game.

Only Dungeon PvP, has zero factor in regular PVP outside a dungeon. Defense Meta's have no direct relationship to damage taken by Players or damage given. It only affects fighting among monsters who could damage you in addition to whatever player your fighting. Also, I don't even understand what you mean by Tamer PvP. Unless your talking about fighting a tamer. If you are, no one is ever fighting the pet, you're fighting the toon that controls the pets and dealing with crowd controling said pet. A Meta Pet will still eat a Defense Dexxer for breakfast imo.

I'm not even sure honestly Player Pets are treated as Monsters where the Tali bonuses apply. @eppy can you confim this piece?

A fully maxed defense relic with a swamp dragon means you take 70%? less damage to monsters, regardless of the armor you have or shield for that matter. Parrying on a maxed defense talisman is honestly not needed at all, as you mitigate such a large amount of pvm damage already that a chance to negate a melee attack is not worth 100 points. The experience boost is meaningless, so you're better off having that slot open for potions.

This is correct. However, leveling a Defensive Dexxer which takes hundreds of man hours without parry (esp. lvls 1-5) when you are only getting a fraction of that 50% dmg reduction (not including Val Swampy). Once you max, you can technically turn your template into whatever you want. You could make a Alchy Stun Mage if that pleases you and still get the benefits of the dmg mitigation from the Tali (the only thing that negates it completely is Music or Animal Taming).

Being so damn tanky means you can stay in the thick of a large mob spawn and deal consistent damage, rarely needing to back off and heal.

For the arms lore aspect, I want you to take a look at sketeg, who was able to top the charts in the elemental invasion WITHOUT arms lore at all AND an untrained zerker tali. Now, imagine having that gigantic damage mitigation, and instead of parry and arms lore take up poisoning and alchemy. You can now particiate more than adequately in a champ spawn, and have a fully overpowered pvp template that can 1v1 anyone. Did I also mention with relics you have no problem vs tamers as well? This template also makes an amazing pker, as anyone without a defense relic who can't mitigate damage like you can will run through dungeons, get either disrupted/firebreathed/casted on by mobs while you take no damage.

This comment makes no sense as you are now talking about a Beserker with non-maxxed Tali and comparing it to the Defense Meta Dexxer. A Meta Dexxer is NOT a pvp template as described (and actually complained about) in this post because many skills are required for it to be beneficial (i.e.: Arms Lore / Spirit Speak) which have no PvP applicability, which means you are fighting 6xGM vs. 7xGM.

If you do take away those skills as you mentioned, you aren't going to be topping any charts in a Champ spawn and still PvPing at the same time. This is the whole reason Devs have tried to balance playstyles and some being up in arms about these changes.

As far as PKing as a Def. Dexxer. Sure, you have that bonus when you're in dungeons to not get hurt as much as a Defense Dexxer. But guess what, that person worked his ass off to get it maxxed to do so. I don't see how that's any different than someone PKing with a Meta Pet.

Replacing poisoning for hiding on the pk template makes you able to redirect aggro much more efficiently (works best with instant aggro mobs like dragons/paragons), and there you have it - a perfectly viable way to mix both pvm and pvp with the tools we have provided to us.

Using your PK to aggro mobs on your enemy is not really being a PK. Thats more griefing than anything. You can be blue and do this too. Besides, if you're PKing, your enemy should already have the mob aggro'd on him, not you. I do see advantage of this of having a Defense Tali for Dungeon PK, and I know its been addressed before, so not going to argue more on this point. Might be only thing you pointed out that has merit honestly.

 

[Cino]

Alright, obviously you haven't used or seen actual pvpers who incorporate defense talismans in their templates. With the defense talisman in its current form, some of the smarter individuals who want a clear advantage over pvp tamers and want to pk in dungeons are already doing so, have you not read any of the past discussions regarding pvp and talisman use? A well played nox alchy dexer at this point can shrug off tamer pets while killing the tamer with a maxed talisman. Also, zero factor in regular pvp? There are many scenarios where pvp occurs mixed in with pvm, and having a character that can do both things can be very effective. I can be at a champ spawn doing defense dexer shit and some dude can come along and attack me, I have all the tools necessary to take a dump all over him.

My point isn't hard to understand template-wise. Due to the fact that a fully maxed defense talisman + swampy negates such a large amount of damage, you can easily fit a normal pvp template into the talisman while being perfectly viable in champion spawns and invasion events, I would much rather have pvp viablitiy once my defense talisman is fully maxed than have some shitty parry chance and a little hit increase. I also made a note that this is LATE GAME fully trained talismans, hell even some of the defense talisman pvp users are being extremely effective at lvl 5-7 right now.

I wasn't making a comparison of an untrained berserker vs defense talisman, I was simply making a note that even a non arms lore dexer, with an untrained talisman or none at all for that matter, can still rack up tons of damage if hes a half competent player. I'll make another example: I scored top 5 on my meta mage playing 3 phases of the elemental invasion. I also started phase 4 with a NON talisman dexer, got 7 levels into defense tali in 2 days and placed 23rd in the entire event. Two different accounts while playing less than the other scoreboard leaders. The damage with a normal dexer + slayer weapon can still be very viable in pvm.

So unless you have real field experience or talk to people that do, instead of speculating then by all means prove me wrong. Got my defense relics on macro mode atm, but I'll be happy to show you in game the crossover this talisman has in pvp, when it's used well.