Solving the So-Called PK Crisis

Tard the Paladin

Grandmaster
Last night was a great example of the problem on UOF concerning PK'ing. A single party of reds stopped the double champ spawn - a server wide event. To me its kinda sad that a single party of reds can stop the entire blue population in their tracks. Let's save the flamey debate over whether or not reds should be allowed to do what and when. Rather let's focus on finding a solution that keeps blues and reds happy. I firmly believe that the Kingdoms idea can do so if it properly incentivizes PvP. In other threads players have expressed skepticism over whether Kingdoms will become popular. They feel it could become exploited or zerg-tastic. There's also the fact that many players don't want to PvP under any circumstances. These are legitimate concerns that are easily remedied.

Consider that the Kingdom's stuff could be balanced several ways. Guilds that join Kingdoms could automatically go to the smallest Kingdom to prevent the largest guilds from making one huge Kingdom. This would provide balance on the number of guilds in each Kingdom.

The only way the Kingdom stuff will actually become popular is if it properly incentivizes blues to join the action. PvM bonuses and pixels would be the way to achieve that. The incentives would also need to be based on the number of members in a Kingdom. This would give an edge to the smallest faction and make the largest faction less appealing in terms of gaining pixels. This provides balance for incentives.

The other concern besides numbers is abusing the Kingdoms system. IE having different accounts in different kingdoms. Providing incentives based upon a players activity will prevent players from leeching off the work of others. A player in a Kingdom that doesn't pull their weight shouldn't receive bonuses like the players that do. Putting that in context would be akin to a faction player with a low punkte score receiving very little silver from mobs where a player with a high punkte score would receive a lot of silver. The punkte score type system prevents players from running up their score by killing alt characters.

Those are just some ideas in my head about balancing the new faction-type system. I'm sure there are other good ways to prevent imbalances and exploits.

The Kingdoms idea is a great way to get blues involved in PvP. Their involvement in PvP will allow them to get better pixels when they PvM. The Kingdoms system can be balanced in terms of numbers and participation.

If Kingdoms becomes popular then it will solve the so-called red crisis. We reds will be doing Kingdoms rather than raiding the dungeons. It will also encourage blues to join the fun because they will have incentive to do so. They surely don't have to PvP because there's nothing to make them. However, if they want the shiniest pixels and the best bonuses then the amount of work they do will determine their rewards.

I think eventually Kingdoms would become contest to see who can create the smallest Kingdom with the best players. This is because remaining smaller and having active hard-working players will result in better rewards. Having a small group of PvP'ers scooping up the bonuses for the hordes of PvM'ers in the same Kingdom simply wouldn't work.
 
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girana

Grandmaster
ppl that dont want to pvp dont want to pvp get it.

Consider that the Kingdom's stuff could be balanced several ways. Guilds that join Kingdoms could automatically go to the smallest Kingdom to prevent the largest guilds from making one huge Kingdom. This would provide balance on the number of guilds in each Kingdom.

force ppl to play with ppl they dont want to play with dont work.
 

Tard the Paladin

Grandmaster
ppl that dont want to pvp dont want to pvp get it.



force ppl to play with ppl they dont want to play with dont work.

Specifically, what do you see as the problem? Are you thinking that blue players will become disgruntled that they aren't receiving the bonuses?

I see bonuses as being just that - a bonus for participating in Kingdoms. It does not take away anything from a blue. The blues that don't wish to PvP won't be obliged to and they should feel relieved that the reds are no longer in their dungeons. They might not receive PvM bonuses but they will receive low risk dungeon crawling which is something I believe blue players are petitioning for with great vigor.
 

TheGooch

Master
Specifically, what do you see as the problem? Are you thinking that blue players will become disgruntled that they aren't receiving the bonuses?

I see bonuses as being just that - a bonus for participating in Kingdoms. It does not take away anything from a blue. The blues that don't wish to PvP won't be obliged to and they should feel relieved that the reds are no longer in their dungeons. They might not receive PvM bonuses but they will receive low risk dungeon crawling which is something I believe blue players are petitioning for with great vigor.
The problem is blues(not in party, not guilded, etc.) will more than likely not stop to heal each other in a champ spawn or event when they are getting attacked leading them to drop one by one. Whereas, reds in the same situation(no party, diff guilds, etc.) will heal each other and continue to under an unspoken truce so they can keep dropping said blue players one by one. It's gotta be some type of pvm/pvp mentality.

Perfect example, a long time ago I was in the bottom lvl of hythloth looking for a fight. Saw @Poptart fighting tamers 1v5. He came back upstairs with low health, tossed him a heal and he knew it was on. We went back down and handled business. Stuff like that, you won't see a lot of blues do and it's a shame. If they did, they would realize their chances of survival would increase substantially.
 

Tard the Paladin

Grandmaster
The problem is blues(not in party, not guilded, etc.) will more than likely not stop to heal each other in a champ spawn or event when they are getting attacked leading them to drop one by one. Whereas, reds in the same situation(no party, diff guilds, etc.) will heal each other and continue to under an unspoken truce so they can keep dropping said blue players one by one. It's gotta be some type of pvm/pvp mentality.

Perfect example, a long time ago I was in the bottom lvl of hythloth looking for a fight. Saw @Poptart fighting tamers 1v5. He came back upstairs with low health, tossed him a heal and he knew it was on. We went back down and handled business. Stuff like that, you won't see a lot of blues do and it's a shame. If they did, they would realize their chances of survival would increase substantially.

That's a good point. I agree that there should be incentives based on PvM and PvP ability. There's a balance that needs to be had in terms of the work that each Kingdom puts into both PvM and PvP. However, the PvP bonuses need to be substantial enough so that players don't choose to farm to gain the same buffs that PvP participants gain. There must be incentives for PvP to encourage players to do so. This shard doesn't need more incentives to grind mobs. People need the nudge to give PvP a try and incentives would do so.
 

Elizabeth Gold

Grandmaster
An incentive to participate in PVP would getting the same tools (read: the means to actually kill a player) as PVP players. Now let's discuss what you can do for my miner-vetrinary-blacksmiths.

An that one time where I killed an enemy factioneer with five packhorses doesn't count. He was afk.
 

exince

Grandmaster
PvM incentives tied to pvp systems don t work...

Its like the current faction system.. having a 25% metapet xp bonus tied to factions is contraproductive, when the pvp community thinks that tamers don t belong to pvp...

Or.. maybe it was exactly that.. make pvm ppl join factions so other factions have some free loot pvm tamers to kill...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 

steve-o

Grandmaster
PvM incentives tied to pvp systems don t work...

Its like the current faction system.. having a 25% metapet xp bonus tied to factions is contraproductive, when the pvp community thinks that tamers don t belong to pvp...

Or.. maybe it was exactly that.. make pvm ppl join factions so other factions have some free loot pvm tamers to kill...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
everyone in minax...
what you think will happen in kingdoms?

tard u are so full of shit...

8 pvp toon in a party and voice vs 20 blues pvm not in party or voice... who you think will win?

noone has even 6 members on and u go with 8 reds... wow good work you are the best!
 

drasked

Grandmaster
Just some info for the people that missed it, not sure how set in stone this is.

From http://www.uoforum.com/threads/ultima-online-forever-kingdoms-part-i.82429/

Kingdoms:
  • JOIN A KINGDOM AND ENJOY ALL THE PERKS AND BENEFITS OF BEING A FULL-FLEDGED CITIZEN OF BRITANNIA
  • RECEIVE PERKS AND BENEFITS FROM YOUR KINGDOM WITHOUT HAVING TO ENGAGE IN ANY KIND OF PVP
  • ENGAGE IN POLITICKING TO DETERMINE WHO WILL WEAR YOUR KINGDOM'S CROWN
  • VIE FOR DOMINANCE IN EPIC KINGDOM ON KINGDOM ACTION
  • DESTROY FORTRESSES WITH VARIOUS SIEGE ENGINES SUCH AS CATAPULTS, BALLISTAE, CANNONS, AND SIEGE TOWERS
  • SUBJUGATE AND VASSALIZE CONQUERED KINGDOMS
  • FORM ALLIANCES WITH SMALLER KINGDOMS TO WAGE WAR AGAINST LARGER KINGDOMS
  • JOIN A KINGDOM'S MILITIA TO ENGAGE IN FACTION STYLE COMBAT

Not sure if there is any other info about Kingdoms i missed.
 
Please not another "pvpers will get a shit ton of bonuses because it will make people pvp" it hasnt worked with factions, it wont work with kingdoms!
 
Although I do agree, the 4th of July double-champ being completely shut down by reds was just sad, glad there are town events that everyone can enjoy.
 

Tard the Paladin

Grandmaster
Please not another "pvpers will get a shit ton of bonuses because it will make people pvp" it hasnt worked with factions, it wont work with kingdoms!

I know it would work. Factions didn't have real incentives. Dumb deco items? Yeah that's not much incentive. Compare that with real incentives like increased relic chances and PvM bonuses. There's nothing players won't do for a relic.
 

Skye Wolfbane

Governor of Trinsic
Al3JUpK.png
 
I know it would work. Factions didn't have real incentives. Dumb deco items? Yeah that's not much incentive. Compare that with real incentives like increased relic chances and PvM bonuses. There's nothing players won't do for a relic.

There is a lot more stuff for factioners right now than just "dumb deco items". Stuff like this just leads to everyone wanting to be in the strongest faction so they can enjoy all the bonuses without any danger, just like now, trammel style. Also this would force people to do stuff they usually wouldn't do, let's face it, a huge majority of the players here has no interest in pvp. Even the one guild that actively "pvps", EQMS, has a ton of players who just joined so they would be left alone by the pvpers.

If you like to solve the "pk crysis" give pvm chars better and more even grounds of fighting pvp chars instead of forcing a ton of people to do stuff they don't like by tying bonuses to it. Right now everything gets raided because it's already hard enough to fight a pvp char with a pvm char and on top of that you get targeted offscreen, are often fighting mobs and reds at the same time and have very little time to prepare for attacks. Why not make it so mobs primarily attack reds when they enter a champ, at least then the people working the champ wouldn't have to fight on two fronts? Make it so people can't gate straight into the champ area with their reds so there is more time to organize for an attack. These are just ideas.

I really don't think kingdoms will change anything about the problem we have: A pvm char is strong enough to slay 50 dragons without taking a scratch but dies within seconds to a pvp char. In my opinion pvp should be open to everyone and becoming good at pvm should take time. Make it so everyone actually has a chance of winning a fight, regardless of their build, make the players rl skill and decision making decide over the outcome of fights not whether who is stuck with the better build for the fight. Just give everyone an equal chance and you'll see people will start liking pvp. Right now it's just way too much "Player versus Victim", thats the reason why so many people complain about EQMS right now, there needs to be more balance to fighting other players.
 

Tard the Paladin

Grandmaster
There is a lot more stuff for factioners right now than just "dumb deco items". Stuff like this just leads to everyone wanting to be in the strongest faction so they can enjoy all the bonuses without any danger, just like now, trammel style. Also this would force people to do stuff they usually wouldn't do, let's face it, a huge majority of the players here has no interest in pvp. Even the one guild that actively "pvps", EQMS, has a ton of players who just joined so they would be left alone by the pvpers.

If you like to solve the "pk crysis" give pvm chars better and more even grounds of fighting pvp chars instead of forcing a ton of people to do stuff they don't like by tying bonuses to it. Right now everything gets raided because it's already hard enough to fight a pvp char with a pvm char and on top of that you get targeted offscreen, are often fighting mobs and reds at the same time and have very little time to prepare for attacks. Why not make it so mobs primarily attack reds when they enter a champ, at least then the people working the champ wouldn't have to fight on two fronts? Make it so people can't gate straight into the champ area with their reds so there is more time to organize for an attack. These are just ideas.

I really don't think kingdoms will change anything about the problem we have: A pvm char is strong enough to slay 50 dragons without taking a scratch but dies within seconds to a pvp char. In my opinion pvp should be open to everyone and becoming good at pvm should take time. Make it so everyone actually has a chance of winning a fight, regardless of their build, make the players rl skill and decision making decide over the outcome of fights not whether who is stuck with the better build for the fight. Just give everyone an equal chance and you'll see people will start liking pvp. Right now it's just way too much "Player versus Victim", thats the reason why so many people complain about EQMS right now, there needs to be more balance to fighting other players.

Your point of view is understandable. However, there are a couple of points I'll make.

PvM templates are viable PvP templates ever since the addition of meta mages and meta dexers. For dexers the only difference would be rather or not they choose alchemy. However, meta dexers still possess great PvM ability even if they choose alchemy as a skill. They can also deal a great amount of damage. Meta mages need a bit of work to be more viable in PvM but staff has said that is coming in a very short time. Tamers should be at a disadvantage at PvP. They have the best PvM ability so balance would dictate that they make sacrifices elsewhere.

The great thing about incentivizing PvP is that players don't have to participate if they don't want to PvP. They can sit on the sidelines and enjoy quiet dungeons. However, it makes sense that players that broaden their horizons with both PvP and PvM should see their efforts rewarded.

It has been very interesting hearing the various points of view. It seems to me that people are calling for a change in the way PvP is done on UOF. There are those that want it to be more of a point and click dungeon hack - kind of like Diablo. There are those of us, like myself, that think a MMO is more fun if both PvP and PvM are intermixed so that you are rewarded for the effort you put in both - kind of like Albion.
 
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Tard the Paladin

Grandmaster

OK Skye, that's great and all. I mean I'll flame away on the PvP forums because we all enjoy a giggle. However, on the Suggestions Forum I try to keep my comments based solely on the topic and post evidence that backs my point of view. Interesting that I must make this distinction to a former Forum Moderator.

I honestly don't understand the picture of pigs atop the Trinsic bank. Is that to suggest that Trinsic is a ghost town, deplete of all life? In other threads you accuse EQMS of being the demise of your guild's enjoyment. Perhaps it is the fact that Trin's guild leader is derelict of duty. A leader that is no where to be seen except flaming the forums and blaming others for the results of her lack of leadership - frowny face.

You have played this game awhile. Surely you have some thoughts about whether or not PvP should be incentivized. I believe that it would spice things up and broaden the horizons of players that might not otherwise consider PvP.
 

steve-o

Grandmaster
lets put back the limit of 1 faction per ip
lets put back the limit on faction size, the biggest faction can't have more then 10 members more then the smallest faction, everyone is in minax for the stupid bonuses
lets remove all the faction bonus they are 100% useless, that's why everyone is in minax
lets fix this stupid buyback head in dungeons (still i don't know how people do it but many times people can buy it back)
lets try to add 2x stat in champ zones, but not with head cutting... if u die inside the area u are fucked (as $ we raided more champs then anyone else but if this can help the pvm noobs maybe we can try it)
why with sallos you can see the healthbar of all enemies but with steam/razor it's disabled?
lets put the 3 rda back since noone is even searching for them or make them spawn like some time ago in the same spots (was the only thing werkt was doing really well)
I wouldn't make the reds to get attacked by mobs... unfortunately you will see too many people abusing this
let's put back the broken all guard mechanic for the pvmmers if u have any pvp skills it's like now
 

lollo

Grandmaster
lets put back the limit of 1 faction per ip
lets put back the limit on faction size, the biggest faction can't have more then 10 members more then the smallest faction, everyone is in minax for the stupid bonuses
lets remove all the faction bonus they are 100% useless, that's why everyone is in minax
lets fix this stupid buyback head in dungeons (still i don't know how people do it but many times people can buy it back)
lets try to add 2x stat in champ zones, but not with head cutting... if u die inside the area u are fucked (as $ we raided more champs then anyone else but if this can help the pvm noobs maybe we can try it)
why with sallos you can see the healthbar of all enemies but with steam/razor it's disabled?
lets put the 3 rda back since noone is even searching for them or make them spawn like some time ago in the same spots (was the only thing werkt was doing really well)
I wouldn't make the reds to get attacked by mobs... unfortunately you will see too many people abusing this
let's put back the broken all guard mechanic for the pvmmers if u have any pvp skills it's like now

You forgot "remove alchy explo pot bonus" to make @girana happy
 

steve-o

Grandmaster
You forgot "remove alchy explo pot bonus" to make @girana happy
i did prefer when the damage was 20 and not possible to use with 2h weapons and i did prefer when the casting timer was slower... but the pvp manager choose it and now we have to adapt.

please don't go OT but give real solutions if you care about this server
 
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