Using Detect while hidden reveals yourself?

amonseti

amonseti

Grandmaster
jeffe said:
Detect already has to compete against the Reveal spell. It is difficult to justify using 100 skill points in Detect Hidden that now reveals you when you can put 100 skill points in magery and have all the benefits of the detect hidden skill for what 20 mana and a 2 second cast time (plus HEALING, SUMMONS, INVIS, etc)? You add in that Detect at GM doesn't work all of the time and the skill points are even less worthwhile.

This is a bad change and ultimately ruins the skill. Why would anyone have detect hidden that wasn't a faction trapper OR a detect bot parked at a bank revealing thieves? Ultimately, the change makes templates more cookie-cutter; taking away a viable option (dungeon crawler -- tracking & detect) from a stealther's template.

How about this for a proposed change: Change detect the back the way it was unless you detect a faction trap, in which case, you are revealed.
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Perfactly Said... simply Perfact !!!
 
SidX

SidX

Grandmaster
jeffe said:
Detect already has to compete against the Reveal spell. It is difficult to justify using 100 skill points in Detect Hidden that now reveals you when you can put 100 skill points in magery and have all the benefits of the detect hidden skill for what 20 mana and a 2 second cast time (plus HEALING, SUMMONS, INVIS, etc)? You add in that Detect at GM doesn't work all of the time and the skill points are even less worthwhile.

This is a bad change and ultimately ruins the skill. Why would anyone have detect hidden that wasn't a faction trapper OR a detect bot parked at a bank revealing thieves? Ultimately, the change makes templates more cookie-cutter; taking away a viable option (dungeon crawler -- tracking & detect) from a stealther's template.

How about this for a proposed change: Change detect the back the way it was unless you detect a faction trap, in which case, you are revealed.
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100% truth.. devoting 100 points to this is a huge deal and it's surprising to see a change like this not even be discussed anywhere before it was implemented.. it is just buried into the patch notes as if it is a minor bug adjustment. This changes the entire dungeon thief template.

Perfectly said.. why not now just get GM Magery and have the ability to reveal, para, stone wall, energy field, unlock, res, heal... we're getting revealed either way.

The only place Detect is useful at now is town banks. After this change, exactly what is the beneft of GMing Detect? Nothing..
 
M

MagicallyBad

Expert
@Shane - There needs to be some balancing done here. I find it absolutely ludicrous that someone who is GM Hiding , GM Stealth, and GM Detect Hidden would reveal themselves when they are a grandmaster in these areas. Have the reveal rate dependent on the peson's skill in Hiding and Stealth and the number of people within a radius or something. Having the person reveal themselves 100% of the time regardless of the circumstances and skill level(s) is just plain stupid.

To be honest, it is these types of changes is what really hurts this shard. It's like zero F's are given to the people who are being nerfed. It really paints a bad picture overall on how much care and consideration is given to the players (who are the supporters btw). I am not opposed to change, I just find this change to be particularly not well thought out and really makes zero sense as it stands.
 
T

Toriad

Neophyte
I don't understand the problem. I play a thief on this server, but I don't run Detect Hidden in my build.

It seems to me like this change does two things, specifically:

  1. Increases the Detect Hidden cooldown to 10 seconds any time you want to stay hidden, because you have to re-hide after using it.
  2. Makes you non-anonymous because your name flashes momentarily before you're hidden again.

What, specifically, can't you do as a result of these two things? Honestly, the only things I ever see detect hidden used for are making WBB less safe for me, and trolling my thief in dungeons. I can also imagine using it to get people killed with mobs, but this change doesn't disrupt the ability to do that.

Using it to steal seems impractical, since revealing your target would tip them off, but maybe people are more oblivious than I thought?

What am I missing?
 
SidX

SidX

Grandmaster
Toriad said:
I don't understand the problem. I play a thief on this server, but I don't run Detect Hidden in my build.
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That's what I meant in one of my previous posts about those who see nothing wrong with this change not actually using Detect... perfect example. Anyone who uses Detect in their build will not like this change at all. Here's why:

Toriad said:
It seems to me like this change does two things, specifically:

1. Increases the Detect Hidden cooldown to 10 seconds any time you want to stay hidden, because you have to re-hide after using it.
Click to expand...

The cooldown actually seems to be the same, something like 3-5 seconds (?). So this wasn't changed. It looks like the only change was just that we get revealed for using Detect. You can re-hide after using Detect, yes, but you shouldn't have to.. that's what's wrong with this change.

Toriad said:
2. Makes you non-anonymous because your name flashes momentarily before you're hidden again.

What, specifically, can't you do as a result of these two things? Honestly, the only things I ever see detect hidden used for are making WBB less safe for me, and trolling my thief in dungeons. I can also imagine using it to get people killed with mobs, but this change doesn't disrupt the ability to do that.
Click to expand...

The difference with even flashing for a second is that it defeats the purpose of the "rogue", who operates under the cover of stealth. We're not supposed to be visible, it's part of the way a dungeon thief should operate.. Destard, for example, is a hotspot for thieves. Tons of slayer weps, SSs, etc. right in the main dragon floor. But by flashing for even a split second while we use Detect-- and before re-hiding-- we get aggro'd on automatically during that millisecond by wyverns and dragons.

What is wrong with this is that thieves can't really wear any armor, and to stealth you need to be unmounted. So good luck becoming visible for 0.5 seconds while a dragon paragon aggro's on you. It's insta-death, no chance. No armor, no mount, you're dead.. dead because I revealed myself for having 100.0 Hiding, 100.0 Stealth and 100.0 Detect Hidden-- a skill that was intended to be used on OTHER players, not yourself.

Toriad said:
Using it to steal seems impractical, since revealing your target would tip them off, but maybe people are more oblivious than I thought?

What am I missing?
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It has been a key skill for my template. As a thief who does use Detect regularly, you'd be surprised at the amount of people who go hidden for a little bit while they grab a drink or a snack AFK in a dungeon. This is a moment of opportunity.. by revealing myself on detect there is now a chance that: (a) the player will see me or see my name in their journal, then leave... or (b) a monster will auto-aggro on me.
 
Sommerella

Sommerella

Master
SidX said:
That's what I meant in one of my previous posts about those who see nothing wrong with this change not actually using Detect... perfect example. Anyone who uses Detect in their build will not like this change at all. Here's why:



The cooldown actually seems to be the same, something like 3-5 seconds (?). So this wasn't changed. It looks like the only change was just that we get revealed for using Detect. You can re-hide after using Detect, yes, but you shouldn't have to.. that's what's wrong with this change.



The difference with even flashing for a second is that it defeats the purpose of the "rogue", who operates under the cover of stealth. We're not supposed to be visible, it's part of the way a dungeon thief should operate.. Destard, for example, is a hotspot for thieves. Tons of slayer weps, SSs, etc. right in the main dragon floor. But by flashing for even a split second while we use Detect-- and before re-hiding-- we get aggro'd on automatically during that millisecond by wyverns and dragons.

What is wrong with this is that thieves can't really wear any armor, and to stealth you need to be unmounted. So good luck becoming visible for 0.5 seconds while a dragon paragon aggro's on you. It's insta-death, no chance. No armor, no mount, you're dead.


It has been a key skill for my template. As a thief who does use Detect regularly, you'd be surprised at the amount of people who go hidden for a little bit while they grab a drink or a snack AFK in a dungeon. This is a moment of opportunity.. by revealing myself on detect there is now a chance that: (a) the player will see me or see my name in their journal, then leave... or (b) a monster will auto-aggro on me.
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A thousand times, this.
 
T

Toriad

Neophyte
SidX said:
That's what I meant in one of my previous posts about those who see nothing wrong with this change not actually using Detect... perfect example. Anyone who uses Detect in their build will not like this change at all.
Click to expand...

That's why I'm asking. I'm trying to figure out what this change does to you.

The cooldown actually seems to be the same, something like 3-5 seconds (?). So this wasn't changed. It looks like the only change was just that we get revealed for using Detect. You can re-hide after using Detect, yes, but you shouldn't have to.. that's what's wrong with this change.
Click to expand...
The point is that it effectively makes the cooldown longer because you have to rehide after using it.

The difference with even flashing for a second is that it defeats the purpose of the "rogue", who operates under the cover of stealth. We're not supposed to be visible, it's part of the way a dungeon thief should operate.. Destard, for example, is a hotspot for thieves. Tons of slayer weps, SSs, etc. right in the main dragon floor. But by flashing for even a split second while we use Detect-- and before re-hiding-- we get aggro'd on automatically during that millisecond by wyverns and dragons.

What is wrong with this is that thieves can't really wear any armor, and to stealth you need to be unmounted. So good luck becoming visible for 0.5 seconds while a dragon paragon aggro's on you. It's insta-death, no chance. No armor, no mount, you're dead.. dead because I revealed myself for having 100.0 Hiding, 100.0 Stealth and 100.0 Detect Hidden-- a skill that was intended to be used on OTHER players, not yourself.

It has been a key skill for my template. As a thief who does use Detect regularly, you'd be surprised at the amount of people who go hidden for a little bit while they grab a drink or a snack AFK in a dungeon. This is a moment of opportunity.. by revealing myself on detect there is now a chance that: (a) the player will see me or see my name in their journal, then leave... or (b) a monster will auto-aggro on me.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Long story short, it's more risky than before.

Seems to me that, assuming this doesn't get changed back, you could make a Last Target->Hide macro that completes your detect and rehides you instantly. Still more risky than before, and you have a longer wait before you can get to the stealing, but you still might be able to be effective while doing this.
 
SidX

SidX

Grandmaster
wreckognize said:
since this is not a bug please try to keep the chatter on the proper forum. It will also help increase your chances to get a change if you do it right. The problem is that this thread keeps getting bumped over other legit bug threads which slows development and fixes.
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Unfortunately this change wasn't announced until many hours after it was put into place. So during that time I posted it here thinking it was a bug that may have happened unknowingly during the faction reset... thus the bug report forum.
 
crazy-horse

crazy-horse

Master
Guessing... timing puts this into place as part of the new Factions revamp? Is this correct Shane?
I can understand wanting to reveal the revealer while stalking faction thieves after sigils and such (assuming thats still a part of the new factions, havent read up on it yet). BUT, most using detect hidden are not doing it in pursuit of a faction sigil thief. If that was put in for faction fun, please either limit it to faction bases, or eliminate the change completely.. please?
I seriously don't care for hiding PKs in tight areas that can't be revealed to sort of discourage them having such a greater advantage than they already have.
 
Guttersnipe

Guttersnipe

Grandmaster
I've got the stealth, tracking, detect char, but I'd like to point out that this isn't the only problem with this detect change. For those who are trying to defend themselves against thieves, this can affect you too. Using detect even reveals you in your own home. This is a bad change for more than just thieves.
 
Bongzilla

Bongzilla

Master
This is a stupid change. This makes no sense and adds to the very reason I don't play my favorite template here. R.I.P to thievery...
 
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