PvP Balance - A Modest Proposal

[Genocide Pete]

It shouldn't matter what the value is. Also, like I said I spent millions on making a tamer for the sole purpose of running a stun tamer. Same thing with my layered armored faction robes that were deleted. Balancing (especially in regards to PVP) shouldn't be based on how much something cost, how much time they spent, or how upset people will be when something is nerfed. These items were meant for PVM and shouldn't have any impact on PVP.

I mean no offense, but you aren't really all that capable of being objective in your decision making when it comes to something that you own or that you take advantage of. Your stance on uoforever armor on UOG for instance: Who in their right mind can argue that blessed, NO dexterity loss, stronger than invulnerability platemail armor is balanced and/or not unfair?

All I'm saying in regards to the value is that whatever change is made should be as generous to talisman-users as possible so that they don't feel robbed, and that the problem being addressed should be worth the price in frustration that will accompany the change. Remember what happened when uoforever plate was made useless? That was the final straw for many of us who owned it, wasn't it? This change would affect many more people, though to a lesser degree.

 

[jkg8787]

I haven't seen anyone say "worthless."

Have you maxed out a talisman yourself? Not trying to be rude but it seems like there's something fundamental here that you're not grasping. I'll try to spell out what I mean when I say it takes a lot of sacrifice to get these.

All that gold and loot from 10000000000s of monsters went toward buying relics for my talisman and perks to level my talisman and relics. I spent over 16mil on relics alone. Part of that money came from donations, part of it I am now in debt to various players for. I had to beg, borrow and steal to get this stuff (okay maybe not steal, but I did have to beg on a few occasions).

I spent the better part of a year killing the same boring monsters over and over and over and over and over, rather than doing more fun, interesting or lucrative things in this game. I gave myself a repetitive motion injury doing this, and now have to ice down my wrist to play (or to do my irl job, which is costing me). I spent days upon days babysitting boring macros until my eyes were aching from staring at the screen. None of this was particularly fun, but I did it because of the benefits the talisman offered, which I expected to benefit from for years. The investment was worth it to me.

And you think all that is negligible compared to the hypothetical "balance" that would supposedly be achieved between a handle of leet pvpers if talis were nerfed?

You think I would have done all that if having a talisman would turn you into a grief magnet?

All I can say is no. Fuck no.

Ok I get that.

But did you buy this with intentions to work in PvP or for PvM (or both?).

Setting aside the grief thing (which again I find very unlikely, or could be changed by making that a murder-count offense, or other possible not yet thought of solutions).

Personally I don't think I've really interacted with a Talisman PK or Talisman PvP. This isn't really the hill I'm willing to die on. However I believe it is a pretty glaring flaw. I'm hoping that by changing things like this we can attempt to have a goal for PvP-balance, try to always head towards that balance and also not have a goal in mind and break that goal (easiest example is Heal wands still working vs a non-factioner. There is obviously a philosophy behind making wands faction only, but to leave this gap in Heal wands open is bad form and a double-standard)

I think "not introducing very expensive and time consuming items into PvP" is a pretty acceptable philosophy that most players would support, so I'd like to see steps towards making that a reality.

Perhaps we will never see eye to eye on this topic, but I thank you for expanding on your thoughts. That's the point of this discussion to allow all sides to give their say.

 

[baseball dad]

Honestly @Streets and @jkg8787 should either get forum banned or start their own trammel shard where you get gifted 120 powerscrolls for sayimg "please" and "thank you". That way the rest of us don't have to listen to their cries cause their naked 0 wrestle reg tamer got dunked on by a solo pk.

If half of you crying here simply learnt the game slightly more than stocking your pack with 30 ea reagent, you might actually improve and in turn have more fun than crying all day.

Fact - reds get targeted by all mobs over blues.
Fact - 2 pets are fucking beast
Fact - all guard is your friend
Fact - recall takes 1 second
Fact - you all suck and im.going to enjoy molesting you over the double xp weekend.

To prove a point, i wont use my 1 and only defense tali dexer (yes i have only 1 as it's not worth the money and time invested to make one). I look forward to your "exp pot script, nerf them" rhetoric, even tho i manually time and *gasps* pull bars to target rather than mashing target closest like you chumps.

 

[jkg8787]

Honestly @Streets and @jkg8787 should either get forum banned or start their own trammel shard where you get gifted 120 powerscrolls for sayimg "please" and "thank you". That way the rest of us don't have to listen to their cries cause their naked 0 wrestle reg tamer got dunked on by a solo pk.

If half of you crying here simply learnt the game slightly more than stocking your pack with 30 ea reagent, you might actually improve and in turn have more fun than crying all day.

Fact - reds get targeted by all mobs over blues.
Fact - 2 pets are fucking beast
Fact - all guard is your friend
Fact - recall takes 1 second
Fact - you all suck and im.going to enjoy molesting you over the double xp weekend.

To prove a point, i wont use my 1 and only defense tali dexer (yes i have only 1 as it's not worth the money and time invested to make one). I look forward to your "exp pot script, nerf them" rhetoric, even tho i manually time and *gasps* pull bars to target rather than mashing target closest like you chumps.

hey troll. you know nothing about me.

gtfo and stop trolling. not once have i ever complained about purple potions while you cry about wands. lmao??

gtfo

 

[baseball dad]

If you answer 'no' to any of the following questions please kindly remove yourself from this discussion:

- do you carry all potions?
- do you wear full armour?
- do you carry trap pouches?
- do you play a solo pk consistently?
- do you want a felucca rule set?
- if you aren't a tamer or dexer, do you have wrestling?
- do you pvp without wands?
- do you have a casual response to dying on a 20 yr old video game?
- is your IQ above 80?

Mmmm thread is over

 

[healmagePRO.]

@TyroneG proved my point and message with the tamer/bard examples......

also, i can kill blue tamers/farmers on a heal mage with no purples.... saying that because of all of those mechanics you listed these talismans should be available is foolish. you're just biased for your gold investment you greeeeeeeeeeeedy bastard.

 

[jkg8787]

If you answer 'no' to any of the following questions please kindly remove yourself from this discussion:

- do you carry all potions?
- do you wear full armour?
- do you carry trap pouches?
- do you play a solo pk consistently?
- do you want a felucca rule set?
- if you aren't a tamer or dexer, do you have wrestling?
- do you pvp without wands?
- do you have a casual response to dying on a 20 yr old video game?
- is your IQ above 80?

Mmmm thread is over

How about you kindly GTFO with your trolling?

I answer yes to all those questions and have PvPed for years. You are an imbecilic troll, kid. You can't even troll properly. You make zero sense.

What do any of those questions have to do with the thread? Trapped pouches, are you serious?

Answer: Nothing.

 

[baseball dad]

How about you kindly GTFO with your trolling?

I answer yes to all those questions and have PvPed for years. You are an imbecilic troll, kid. You can't even troll properly. You make zero sense.

What do any of those questions have to do with the thread? Trapped pouches, are you serious?

Answer: Nothing.

It has everything to do with this thread and other snow flake threads crying about bs as the newbs tearing about dying to someone cause of this or that are the same ones who don't properly prepare themself for combat or defense.

I hope you and streets are ready to get dunked on this weekend by my pk with NO defence talisman (or maybe ill put a zerker one on and u can cry that zerker talis's now work in pvp with scripted exp pots).

 

[TyroneG]

What's funny is I think the exact opposite as far as the other side of this argument being trammies/snowflakes. People having to abuse a talisman to kill bards/tamers with no wrestling in a dungeon kinda makes that argument for me.

If in fact reds do get targeted by spawn over blues that is an issue that needs to be fixed. I thought they had already changed that back. TBH I wouldn't really know for sure as I don't really play much anymore. When I do play I prefer to fight PVPers who are actually stocked and not rape noobs with 17 armor, 30 each reg, no wrestling, and no pots in dungeons while on a dexxer who takes no damage from spawn/pets due to abusing a talisman.

 

[girana]

Fact - reds get targeted by all mobs over blues.

this got removed 2 month ago
source: eppy (the guy who turned it off)

hey troll. you know nothing about me.

gtfo and stop trolling. not once have i ever complained about purple potions while you cry about wands. lmao??

gtfo

why you even care about him he is a very good example how the elite pvp kill pvp in UO.
they just care about their own style, everyone else is a trashcan and not worth a voice that their demanted changed has impac on everyone else gamestyle dosnt matter because they all trashcans.

3 Years ago we had every healthy pvp here with very few elitist but tons of avg. players till UOG died and alot of elite pvpers moved here and demanted changes to make UOF a UOG clone in PvP and now PvP died here too.

 

[baseball dad]

What's funny is I think the exact opposite as far as the other side of this argument being trammies/snowflakes. People having to abuse a talisman to kill bards/tamers with no wrestling in a dungeon kinda makes that argument for me.

If in fact reds do get targeted by spawn over blues that is an issue that needs to be fixed. I thought they had already changed that back. TBH I wouldn't really know for sure as I don't really play much anymore. When I do play I prefer to fight PVPers who are actually stocked and not rape noobs with 17 armor, 30 each reg, no wrestling, and no pots in dungeons while on a dexxer who takes no damage from spawn/pets due to abusing a talisman.

I dont find pvping wand/run mages fun.

If you didn't have such an ego about death (i.e only leaving your house with 50k in wands/running entire map/calling in other wand mages to 1 button sync) you'd find that dungeon pvp is very dynamic and fun.

But keep blaming the defence talisman on why u die or call in to gank.

There's certain players/guilds i wont bother chasing outside a dungeon entrance as it turns into the usain bolt experience.

But yes i will agree that not everyone is a challenge, but merely collateral damage, it's when you attack certain guilds that chaos breaks out. Try soloing more to create fights.

 

[K A Z]

I dont find pvping wand/run mages fun.

If you didn't have such an ego about death (i.e only leaving your house with 50k in wands/running entire map/calling in other wand mages to 1 button sync) you'd find that dungeon pvp is very dynamic and fun.

But keep blaming the defence talisman on why u die or call in to gank.

There's certain players/guilds i wont bother chasing outside a dungeon entrance as it turns into the usain bolt experience.

But yes i will agree that not everyone is a challenge, but merely collateral damage, it's when you attack certain guilds that chaos breaks out. Try soloing more to create fights.

dungeon PVP was 100% better before talisman and changes to mob AI (as they still target reds over blues)

 

[Darkarna]

I think you are all a bunch of newbs, using UOSteam / Sallos for PVP... PFFFT... Try using the UO config system and grow some balls instead of stuffing a couple of tennis balls down yer pants to fake manhood..

On a serious note *referring to the fact that the above is nothing more than a little humour, be that bad or good* much of the pvp changes were to cater for many types of fighting scenario, mass guild fights *eqms era* being one and might require a little tinkering to bring things back in line. Talismans are a great addition for the PVM aspect of things but unfortunately they can also be used in PVP even if it is indirectly.

For the defence talisman, there could potentially be a trigger effect where, if you attack a human *blue, red, grey whatever* the talisman itself shuts off with a two minute timer *like criminal timer* which refreshes every time damage is done to a player and only triggers when an aggressive act on someone is performed *Players who are attacked still have the defence buff applied until they retaliate then their talisman shuts down also.*

 

[Xiulan]

Setting aside the grief thing (which again I find very unlikely

Things like this makes me suspect that you're new here, despite it saying 2014 on your account. Trust me, if something can be used to grief or gain an advantage it will be, and pretty much everyone on this thread knows it.

But did you buy this with intentions to work in PvP or for PvM (or both?).

I'm a pvmer, but when I started my talisman (zerker) I was so new I actually didn't know it couldn't be used in pvp -- I thought it would help me defend myself from pks. When I found out it wouldn't I thought that was the stupidest thing ever, but I was far enough into it that I decided to keep going.

Now that I've been here a year and seen how things go I get the philosophy behind not letting grindy and expensive items impact pvp. I just think the ship has sailed on talismans and the changes should have been made a long time ago if they were going to be made at all.

Also, I think the "balance" and "level playing field" you're asking for isn't even really possible. Earlier in this thread you said something about not wanting a pyramid with the players with the most time/money/experience at the top. That's just the way it is and the way it will be no matter what is changed. Even if you completely remove time and money (grindy and expensive) from the equation, players with more experience and skill will still be at the top. Just doesn't seem like there's enough to be gained here to justify screwing over players who invested so much.

 

[healmagePRO.]

I dont find pvping wand/run mages fun.

you still kill bard table macroers brah

 

[shirtandpantsman]

At lv 10 talisman it's only 35% reduction from player pets.

I didn't know defense tali worked against player pets, I'm not on the disable talisman on pvp bandwagon, but seems like it shouldn't count at all against player's pets (even though tamers are OP as fuck already, it's the principle)

 

[Young Star]

I didn't know defense tali worked against player pets, I'm not on the disable talisman on pvp bandwagon, but seems like it shouldn't count at all against player's pets (even though tamers are OP as fuck already, it's the principle)

the talisman bonus doesnt but quench and remedy will still work for firebreath or poison bite from pets.

 

[AngloSpanglo]

Everyone who has a maxed defense talisman has put in hundreds of hours of hard work with an expectation of certain mechanics. To suddenly change it to become useless in Champ PvP scenarios would make it mostly useless - all of the other talismans are better at getting champ score and are easier to level. I'm sure a lot of people would quit the game if your proposed changes happened.

 

[Lord and Savior]

you still kill bard table macroers brah

Kill em all.

 

[StegcO]

Everyone who has a maxed defense talisman has put in hundreds of hours of hard work with an expectation of certain mechanics. To suddenly change it to become useless in Champ PvP scenarios would make it mostly useless - all of the other talismans are better at getting champ score and are easier to level. I'm sure a lot of people would quit the game if your proposed changes happened.

I can't imagine how much hard is lvling a talisman, i have all 4 talisman type but never grinded anyone only exped while playing. If staff will disable it while pvp i really hope they also switch it to a blue char or reset murder count becouse it's really a long pain exping a talisman.

But to be honest Staff alway said Talisman was for pvm not for pvm, if someone grinded it on a red is like someone that don't pay taxes: you instantly have a benefit becouse you have more money in your pockets but if agents knock on your door you can't reply "go fuck yourself I cant pay taxes or fine I have just bought a Ferrari and now you want to force me to sell it to give money back???"

I can't imagine how much rage I will have if someone, for example, steal a relic from a motm I have killed and then he PhaeShift away

P.S. I'm the only one looser piece of shift that don't want advantage using PKs? My solo templates are shitter than the pvmers ill go to kill and my group template take advantage from tactics/strategy not from a tali.

BTW disable talisman in pvp will change nothing if blues don't grow e-brain and e-balls, more or less 10 arch deamon ago when my red appears in the room no less than 10 blues with shiny blaze item full talisman 100m bank balance runned away in the middle of tentacles INSTEAD killing me, the only one blue that stopped to attack arch to attack me was basically a new users of City of Avalon guild.

Guys remember: Fun > Pixel