A Possible Solution to The Problem of PvP

AreYouKidden

AreYouKidden

Grandmaster
That's why i said in some ways - I don't think PvM'ing for PvP gains is a good solution by any means however it did show if there was something to gain for participating in a system, more people would do it.. Right now as PvP stands, there is no incentive/progression for me to PvP on a regular basis, so I and many others I know, stick to PvM, even though we enjoy PvP.
 
K

Kyain

Master
There's also the inherent imbalanced game play of pvp in an open world ruleset. Firstly, my tamer is in no way a fight for you guys seeking pvp, he simply rolls over and dies because my pets are too slow and too busy fighting other stuff leaving me defenseless. Even if they weren't, they're just flat out too slow (seriously how can I outrun a damn dragon on foot, come on man)

Then even if my tamer were to have a decent shot at fighting back, it's never even a 1 on 1. The ONLLLLYYY solo pk I've come across is Blacklisted, and even sometimes he has friends with him, but many of times he's solo. Generally 3-4 reds come onto my screen within 1 second of each other and dump their precasted explosions or e-bolts and melt me before I can even react. That is in no way PVP, it's simply a zerg gank and I would say without a doubt that the majority are not actually looking for good pvp fights. Take Roadhog for example, he'll cruise around dagger isle killing tamers leveling up but as soon as a pvp capable char locks sites on him he hauls ass out of there to his nearest safe spot.

So you say build a pvp template to fight back.... well now I'm either on the outnumbering of the opponent side or I'm outnumbered yet again. If I'm outnumbering who I'm hunting 3 to 1, I find no joy or sport in that. If I'm 1 on 1 vs a complete pvm template with a pvp character who simply steamrolls them without issue, I find no joy or sport in that. It's the same reason I don't fish stocked ponds and the like, as I want the challenge in real life just as I do in games.

Now I do like the fact that I've seen CTF, and duels and the such in here. That is ultimately the type of PVP I will lean towards when I'm finally situated in game, but until then I will enjoy the cat and mouse aspect of UO pvp that I have at my disposal now. I still consider that a fun gameplay for myself, where I'm simply trying to avoid the ridiculous number of pk's out there. Get in, get loot, get out asap before I'm caught is better then a mindless 3-4 hours of farming the same spot non stop. I also do my best to make it more expensive to hunt me then the return you get after killing me (I'm a tamer, 20 regs of each at most and I bank every 2-3 stops with no armor on me)

Now I will say there is one comment in this thread that really irked me. Stegco, stating that you want to force your playstyle upon others. That is a close minded elitist thought process right there and someone with that mindset will never produce meaningful contributions to the community as a whole. UO is the ultimate sandbox, it's why I love this game, and PVP will not be for everybody. I do agree PVP should have better rewards or something to make it more engaging, but saying you're going to force that playstyle on someone or basically make them quit. That invalidates every other playstyle out there but yours, and you should reflect on the thought that some people may just be happier playing as a tamer, or a crafter, or enjoying the commerce of a player driven economy. Some of us enjoy the pvp aspect without actually being involved, like I stated above with the cat and mouse game, and you should be respectful of that as without those people, your world would be completely empty and you'd definitely have nothing to do but leave at that point.

I know most of you will groan at the thought of this, but I think some of my favorite PVP moments have been from wow arenas. Closed areas, set team sizes, forcing tactics and cooperation between teammates. Yes there is still imbalance between classes and group composition, but it was never a 5 on 1 dumpfest and you always felt you had a solid chance going into it if you were prepared and coordinated.
 
K

Kyain

Master
drasked said:
You need extra skills to use explo pot? Tell me more.



Battlegrounds was terrible and killed world pvp overnight.


I fully support your sentiment of getting more people in to pvp, its just very hard to do it in a good way, that is why it hasn't been done yet.

On the pvp mechanics side what would you change to accomodate casual players?
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Drasked I just wanted to comment on this from my perspective....

Yes battlegrounds killed world pvp in wow, but ask yourself why? I can tell you in vanilla, it all depended on who had greater numbers to push and hold a certain area. Be it crossroads, a farming spot, whatever, I can't remember them all.

This leads players to react in 3 ways generally
1) Avoid the area and or game when they cannot accomplish what they're looking for there
2) Try and fight back, but when it starts out 30 on 10, you're not going to make any headway or accomplish anything other then giving the opponent more HK's
3) Swap to the winning side so that they can do what they want since they control the areas.

The battlegrounds effectively solved all 3 of those. There was still imbalance in some of the bg's, but it wasn't 100% one way or the other. I remember on blackhand Alliance being in a pretty sour spot for BG's to start, but we could still win about 20% of the AV's, and even if you lost your were still getting honor so it was fun to get in there.

It was always 40 on 40 too at that point. Again you'd get some scrub afk'ers, but both sides had them, so it was generally fair numbers and down to coordination/skill

And finally, the bg's were a facet of the game, but not the only one and not required to progress in daily wow life. I could go out herbing or do whatever I wanted finally because as you said, the pvp'ers were off in battlegrounds (and I would join them as well)

No game, and I mean it, no game will ever get true open world pvp correct. It's just not feasible, as you can't impose rules. The absolute best you can hope for is a semi code of honor between participants, but then person a bends those self made rules, person b then overcompensates because of it, person a now brings a zerg, blah blah.
 
K

Kyain

Master
now............ I've griped enough....... let me toss this out for some thoughts and it was the basis of how I wanted an open world game to work (albeit these ideas are kinda stripped straight from UO but with a twist)

We can call them whatever we want, but I was going with Chaos/Neutral/Order

Chaos > you do whatever you want, you are your own boss, you're free to attack whomever you damn well please at any times. Murderer's are in this category obviously

Neutral > You have no cat in the fight. You cannot initiate attacks against any murderers or blues. You can still be attacked however, but your attackers will do 50% less damage (or tuned to a value) against you. Suddenly your pvm template is way more capable of fighting back instead of just rolling over. This would also need to be tweaked so that once attacked, you can initiate combat with any reds within a certain radius of your attacker, and this would also allow any fellow Neutral members in your immediate vicinity to also fight back (i.e. they do not need to wait to be attacked, to avoid 6 reds targetting just 1 person and leaving 5 others unable to do anything) I'd also love if this could scale to the amount of players in the vicinity, but that's getting fairly complex. My biggest concern is that this just makes the pk zerg's even larger, as now 3 would not be enough to just instakill someone, so they start bringing 6-7.

Order > You're the righteous good guys. You are unable to attack blues but are free to initiate attacks upon reds/greys. You get no damage reduction or skill altering, but because of your service you will be given some rewards for your work (i.e. number of player kills).

So... reds, you still live your life as you please, but you're going to think twice about attacking everybody from here on out as they may not be easy kills, but it will give you that pvp you keep asking for. It gives the pvm'ers the ability to fight back without a pvp character and they won't feel that they're just a free kill to whoever shows up.
 
W

Winstonian

Grandmaster
Two pretty great posts from someone who isn't part of the self-proclaimed "PvP Elite". One of the best points is how many of the PvPers really don't want PvP... they want the advantage and an easy kill. Sure, they claim they "PvP" while sharing PvM loot with their friends, but they absolutely don't want a fair fight.

I think an influx of casual players into PvP would do a lot for the state of things.
 
W

Winstonian

Grandmaster
Kyain said:
So... reds, you still live your life as you please, but you're going to think twice about attacking everybody from here on out as they may not be easy kills, but it will give you that pvp you keep asking for. It gives the pvm'ers the ability to fight back without a pvp character and they won't feel that they're just a free kill to whoever shows up.
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I wouldn't mind a system such as this. I like it. It forces players to pick their side and play accordingly. Sadly, the PKs on this shard (which are many) would never, ever be a fan, and it would never be implemented as a result. I've always wanted a system that encourages players to actually fight instead of constantly running away until they have a numbers advantage.
 
K

Kyain

Master
Well I'm sure most will read this and say OMG he's a trammie but that's just the thing. I legitimately do not want trammel. I do not want open world pvp turned off. I do want to level that playing field and make things more enjoyable for all parties, and not just 1 particular set. If I wanted a carebear server I would've joined a carebear server in the first place lol.
 
W

Winstonian

Grandmaster
Kyain said:
Well I'm sure most will read this and say OMG he's a trammie but that's just the thing. I legitimately do not want trammel. I do not want open world pvp turned off. I do want to level that playing field and make things more enjoyable for all parties, and not just 1 particular set. If I wanted a carebear server I would've joined a carebear server in the first place lol.
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Couldn't agree more. Due to the relaxed PKing rules here, the PKs would never go for it. It's way too easy and profitable for them the way it is.
 
K

Kyain

Master
I will say this though. For you guys that genuinely want the pvp aspect of UO, I could say for a fact that if I could be on equal footing when ambushed and distracted and have a chance of countering and fighting back, I'd be in that fight every day. In this current system, if you're lucky enough to interupt my emergency recall ya got me, and if not you'll only see where I was, not where I am. In either of those situations, you're not getting pvp. You're killing an unarmed character not fighting back or not killing anything, you're only fighting your keyboard to get it off fast enough.
 
drasked

drasked

Grandmaster
Kyain said:
The battlegrounds effectively solved all 3 of those. There was still imbalance in some of the bg's, but it wasn't 100% one way or the other. I remember on blackhand Alliance being in a pretty sour spot for BG's to start, but we could still win about 20% of the AV's, and even if you lost your were still getting honor so it was fun to get in there.
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Yeah, i remember the same, playing alliance on a horde dominated server, winning about 10-20% of BG's only by doing some weird backdoor tactics. BG grind did reward you with some best in slot items (other than MC drops). I vividly remeber how much i hated it, especially as a single target melee damage dealer the grind was horrible.

I quit the game shortly after the introduction of battlegrounds and other changes watering the game down.

Southshore VS Tarren Mill, RIP.
 
K

Kyain

Master
drasked said:
Yeah, i remember the same, playing alliance on a horde dominated server, winning about 10-20% of BG's only by doing some weird backdoor tactics. BG grind did reward you with some best in slot items (other than MC drops). I vividly remeber how much i hated it, especially as a single target melee damage dealer the grind was horrible.

I quit the game shortly after the introduction of battlegrounds and other changes watering the game down.

Southshore VS Tarren Mill, RIP.
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so in the same aspect though, how was the southshore/tarren mill fiasco any different for you? In the BG you at least started 40 on 40, could still play as a sneaky rogue and picking people off or joining the big fray going head to head. In the world pvp you were eventually forced back to your respawn point and just camped there and effectively lost access to the entire area.

Did you hate the aspect that you felt forced into it eventually by it having BiS items and equipment, which without you would be at a disadvantage, or was it that it was an instanced BG with a ruleset? For me, the only dislike came from the fact that you had to do some forms of the game you didn't want to participate in to be better at others.
 
K

Kyain

Master
Actually I wish I could edit posts, but I remember the thing I hated the most about it was the waiting queue to join a game lol
 
AreYouKidden

AreYouKidden

Grandmaster
girana said:
relaxed pk rules ?

you die you 2 days out thats not relaxed
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I wish there was a listing of the actual penalties, because not having a red myself, I don't know I understand them fully. However 24 hours statloss that counts down while not even on the server isn't a harsh penalty. But other reasons I say it's relaxed:
  • There are several areas where it's no cut - you can't be statted.
  • When you can get your head cut, you can negotiate to get your head back.
  • On top of that, you can buy back your head for a cost? (how high is that cost really on a server with an over abundance of gold?)
  • You can have like 21 characters across 3 accounts, you lose one of your reds, you hop on another, and keep going. Most people play 3-4 hour sessions a day, so your talking 8-10 hours of gameplay. If you do manage to get all your reds statted in that time and couldn't buy back, you are now penalized.
I'm sorry but that doesn't seem harsh to me at all. Implement a permanent statloss of 1%, and a temporary 10% statloss for 2 hours, and now we're talking a little harsher. Actively making reds level their chars back up, or pay for skill scrolls to do so would go a long way in making people think twice about being the killer.
 
drasked

drasked

Grandmaster
Kyain said:
so in the same aspect though, how was the southshore/tarren mill fiasco any different for you? In the BG you at least started 40 on 40, could still play as a sneaky rogue and picking people off or joining the big fray going head to head. In the world pvp you were eventually forced back to your respawn point and just camped there and effectively lost access to the entire area.

Did you hate the aspect that you felt forced into it eventually by it having BiS items and equipment, which without you would be at a disadvantage, or was it that it was an instanced BG with a ruleset? For me, the only dislike came from the fact that you had to do some forms of the game you didn't want to participate in to be better at others.
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I hated the fact that they killed world pvp and turned it in to an instance with a grind.
 
K

Kyain

Master
K A Z said:
glad it only took this thread 12 pages to finally get to "pks are ruining my game experience, I hate how hard UO is and I'd rather play WOW"
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LOL, I don't even see how you've made the connection to that, when I've already said multiple times I don't want to get rid of pk's at all, just put them on a bit more even footing. If you're taking someone else's replies in that context then you're reading into it more then I am. If you can't comprehend somebody may have a different playstyle then you and want to discuss it to come to a solution that benefits everybody then you've failed at the point of this thread.

drasked said:
I hated the fact that they killed world pvp and turned it in to an instance with a grind.
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Not picking on you drasked, but I'm looking at this in more of a failure analysis. (No, not saying you're a failure but how specifically did it fail you) I honestly thought the BG's and arenas were great additions for the game, even though they were still flawed, but I'm genuinely curious about the other viewpoints.

If we break it down you made 2 points (instanced pvp) and (grind)

Why do you hate instanced pvp instead of world pvp. Is it that you like the possibility of hugely imbalanced fights, the size of the play area, no time limits, or was this a non point in comparison to your next one, which was turning pvp into a grind. In that one I wholeheartedly agree with you on the grind aspect, it sucked that they forced pretty much everybody into it.

I'd also like to know if you genuinely want PVP or just the ability to murder and loot people. There is a difference, as steamrolling a blue farming in a dungeon with 3-4 pk's is not pvp, it's just simply ganking them. When I'm asking about PvP I want to know if you want a true honest to goodness fight for every kill you get, every night. (ganking legitimately is what some people get their enjoyment out of, and why they play UO, but I'm trying to gauge if the PVP community, the ones requesting PVP, actually want that or just want to retain their ability to gank someone on a whim)
 
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