Defense Talisman Changes

[Chediak]

So is there a consensus that this should be changed so it only affects the aggressor? I'd include "and those who choose to fight back" as long as it gave me a chance to make a decision, like in @Peav 's suggestion.

 

[AreYouKidden]

Peav's was a good suggestion, the 10 second delay before losing your talisman, also lets you know to back away from the mobs, before your defense drops.

 

[Blaine the Gypsy]

I made this thread for @eppy to show who ever else staff wise that needed to see the impact.

 

[The Real Jenova]

and kaz has no defense guy he just named rdm ppl

jenny jogs is who?

 

[girana]

jenny jogs is who?

there is no jenny jogs

 

[eppy]

Here is my opinion on this thread:
I made this talisman work against monsters and only monsters from the very beginning. It has never worked on players.

I have resisted changing it and argued against it up until the very end. I will still make that argument whenever my opinion is asked.

I feel that those who claim it affects pvp are being disingenuous. Using monsters and pets to kill other players does not seem to me to be the definition of player versus player combat.

 

[Lexington]

I want you to reread this post... It is kind of the whole crux of the argument against talismans working in PVP.

You saying this only validates many of the points made against talismans working in combat.

First we have you saying that PVP should be based on players killing each other and not decided on mobs. I assume you are saying that under the current system (no defense talisman during combat) the fights are determined by mobs. This is not true as both parties are effected by mobs equally. Now, lets think about the past situation in which talismans work in combat. If anything this is when mobs "decide who died in a fight".

Next we have you saying that unless you have the time/gold to spend on a talisman and relics you should be at a disadvantage in dungeon fights. Your solution is for everyone to invest in them..


If there were a PVM item that indirectly gave mages an unfair advantage in PVP - say a boost to their evalint making no spells resistable - I may buy it and abuse it while it lasts, but I would be one of the first people to ask for it to be nerfed. At a certain point you need to make a stance. Do you want PVM additions (talismans/metas/etc.) to be applicable in PVP or not - need to make that stance and stick to it regardless of if it is gonna make people upset or angry, whether or not it has existed in that capacity for a week or a year, or whether or not people paid millions of gold and/or spent a lot of time acquiring it.

Sorry I don't read it that way. I don't believe I contradicted my self at all.

With dungeon PVP a lot of the time the final or critical blow is given out by a mob. These talisman (which are available to everyone!) allow the PVP to be based more on the players skill. The problem most have here is they are comparing a dungeon PVP players ability to survive against a PVM players. If players are trying to go toe to toe with a player skilled and geared to solely PVP in a dungeon and feel things should be equal we might as well just start rolling dice to decide who wins.

 

[Lexington]

Here is my opinion on this thread:
I made this talisman work against monsters and only monsters from the very beginning. It has never worked on players.

I have resisted changing it and argued against it up until the very end. I will still make that argument whenever my opinion is asked.

I feel that those who claim it affects pvp are being disingenuous. Using monsters and pets to kill other players does not seem to me to be the definition of player versus player combat.

OMG, I think I like you even more now!!! Finally someone who has a brain!

 

[toddyboi]

WARNING WARNING!!!!
This is an emergency announcement from the National Weather service of Sosaria.

We are currently experience flash flooding from trammie tears through vast regions of Sosaria. Please evacuate if you're near streams, creeks, WERKT & $OWER HQ. Please check with local authorities on updates!

PS Don't worry guys, they will fix a mechanic that just fixed a broken mechanic.

 

[AreYouKidden]

Sorry I don't read it that way. I don't believe I contradicted my self at all.

With dungeon PVP a lot of the time the final or critical blow is given out by a mob. These talisman (which are available to everyone!) allow the PVP to be based more on the players skill. The problem most have here is they are comparing a dungeon PVP players ability to survive against a PVM players. If players are trying to go toe to toe with a player skilled and geared to solely PVP in a dungeon and feel things should be equal we might as well just start rolling dice to decide who wins.

I think the issue @Lexington becomes that the talisman level, an end game item, ends up affecting the outcome of the PvP. While you may be right in that if everyone had a level 10 with maxed out relics defense tali, the PvP may be then based on solely the players skill. But the reality is, the majority of people don't have a maxed out tali, and I'd rather not see PvP delayed by new players coming to the shard for months, for fear they require a talisman to compete in PvP. PvP should be an even field for everyone, not just those who've been here for years, and have leveled up talis on several characters.

A better solution then spend a month grinding, to defend against mobs, so you can base PvP on a players skill level, would be to automatically increase a players resistances to the mobs around them, if they attack another person, encouraging a player to attack back in order to share the same increased defense against mobs, so they can fight out their PvP.. (This is entirely a not thought out idea, that would be abuseable but I hope you see where I'm coming from)

 

[Darkarna]

Here is my opinion on this thread:

I feel that those who claim it affects pvp are being disingenuous. Using monsters and pets to kill other players does not seem to me to be the definition of player versus player combat.

Technically, this is PVP. Any action regarding a player who intends to cause grief/harm or any negative act towards another player falls under the category of Player Vs Player. The same applies to a thief and every other action regarding player A trying to interact with player B negatively/conflict based.

But for clarity and to keep folks from having a nervous breakdown, then I guess we could all overlook that little point.

But damn, this thread....

Threats of quitting galore and tantrums 101..

It was suggested before to make it aggressor only on a previous thread so I am unsure why it went down this direction, not really complaining, I found all of the talismans a major bore fest and what not, the reason mine is only at level 1 and never used apart from decoration.

Okay enough of my useless input *well apart from the PVP part*.

Going to grab my swimming trunks and goggles, all these tears around here have made a gigantic swimming pool, heated and just begging to be swum in. Good for the skin I was told..

 

[DrSaso]

Going to grab my swimming trunks and goggles, all these tears around here have made a gigantic swimming pool, heated and just begging to be swum in. Good for the skin I was told..

Don't even need a float or armbands..... all the salt means we won't sink


Thee whole "only effects aggressor unless they fight back" would be problematic though.... as an archer...if i get targeted... even in peacemode, my guy will start hurling arrows in their general direction. Easy enough for a pk to run in and attack, melee/archer auto attcks back and loses tali... then pk can run away making life that much more difficult for the innocent.

It's a sticky situation for sure

 

[toddyboi]

Don't even need a float or armbands..... all the salt means we won't sink


Thee whole "only effects aggressor unless they fight back" would be problematic though.... as an archer...if i get targeted... even in peacemode, my guy will start hurling arrows in their general direction. Easy enough for a pk to run in and attack, melee/archer auto attcks back and loses tali... then pk can run away making life that much more difficult for the innocent.

It's a sticky situation for sure

Just because you auto fight back doesn't mean you have flagged them. Same thing applies now if you have 0 counts you're not in the heat of battle and can recall out.

 

[Chediak]

Just because you auto fight back doesn't mean you have flagged them. Same thing applies now if you have 0 counts you're not in the heat of battle and can recall out.

That's a good point! Perhaps a fix could use this flag.

 

[Lexington]

WARNING WARNING!!!!
This is an emergency announcement from the National Weather service of Sosaria.

We are currently experience flash flooding from trammie tears through vast regions of Sosaria. Please evacuate if you're near streams, creeks, WERKT & $OWER HQ. Please check with local authorities on updates!

PS Don't worry guys, they will fix a mechanic that just fixed a broken mechanic.

You're funny

 

[girana]

WARNING WARNING!!!!
This is an emergency announcement from the National Weather service of Sosaria.

We are currently experience flash flooding from trammie tears through vast regions of Sosaria. Please evacuate if you're near streams, creeks, WERKT & $OWER HQ. Please check with local authorities on updates!

PS Don't worry guys, they will fix a mechanic that just fixed a broken mechanic.

$ guild is the only guild who benefit from this so why we should cry ?

 

[Baby Blue]

Great change. Now it works as it should. I feel sorry for those who lvled their talismans for pvp though.

 

[Darkarna]

Don't even need a float or armbands..... all the salt means we won't sink

We could create a venture out of this you know, perhaps get some sand, turn it into sand dunes around the pool and whatnot and create our very own Dead Sea Forever lake tourist attraction. I mean, this place will never run out of tears so, it is quite easy to refill on a regular basis. Then we can start charging 10,000 gold pieces to let our beloved community swim in it! We also have the the health benefits that hypersaline bodies of water provide.

Surely to work!

 

[girana]

Great change. Now it works as it should. I feel sorry for those who lvled their talismans for pvp though.

its not those its only genocide pete who did it.

 

[Lexington]

I think the issue @Lexington becomes that the talisman level, an end game item, ends up affecting the outcome of the PvP. While you may be right in that if everyone had a level 10 with maxed out relics defense tali, the PvP may be then based on solely the players skill. But the reality is, the majority of people don't have a maxed out tali, and I'd rather not see PvP delayed by new players coming to the shard for months, for fear they require a talisman to compete in PvP. PvP should be an even field for everyone, not just those who've been here for years, and have leveled up talis on several characters.

A better solution then spend a month grinding, to defend against mobs, so you can base PvP on a players skill level, would be to automatically increase a players resistances to the mobs around them, if they attack another person, encouraging a player to attack back in order to share the same increased defense against mobs, so they can fight out their PvP.. (This is entirely a not thought out idea, that would be abuseable but I hope you see where I'm coming from)

We need end game items like this for PVP players... if not people get bored and quit. Take a look around the docks it's empty. It's also crazy to think that every end game item should never enhance PVP. Your supposed to work your ass of to get to elite levels. This is UO it's not meant to be easy. If not why not just have it so you can set your template to max when you create your character. I've seen so many great, well established, PVP players quit over the years. Is it because there is nothing more for them to work towards?

Anyways... If we are to decide that end game items like this are detrimental to PVP we need to make the same assumption with slayer AR, slayer spell books and slayer weapons. Everything needs to be nullified, against mobs, once you enter combat.

@eppy has said everything that needs to be said IMO.